Family & Religion

[popkin16]

I went to bed really late and had to get up early. Within fifteen minutes of being awake, my uncle and I were discussing politics. I mentioned that I was happy that Obama repealed DADT, and my uncle was like, "I'm not sure that's a good thing. Because now the soldiers are going to be uncomfortable around them, and the last thing they need is to be distracted."

Me: "I'm pretty sure in the heat of battle the last thing on anybody's mind is, "That is one hot butt.'"

And then I got a half hour lecture on how homosexuality is wrong because God says so. And how wanting equal rights for all is Satan having power over us. I asked him that if God was so loving, why did he hate homosexuals? My uncle talked about how it was unnatural, and then he started saying something about bad things happening to people because Satan had a strong hold on us all and...something. I stopped listening.

Eventually he changed the subject to the bible prophecies that are coming true and the approaching End of Days, which segued into a lecture that there was no way to prove the Bible wrong, that Atheists and others have tried and failed, and that some Atheists/others have even converted to Christianity in their quest to prove the bible wrong.

I listened to him talk and hid my grin behind my hand.

Watch out for those talking snakes, yo. They can be really chatty.

Don't let one talk you into eating any fruit.

Comments

[theladymore.livejournal.com]

There is nothing I HATE more is people who use god. As an excuse to rip on the homsexual community. In the Jewish religion we are taught God is merciful and loves all his children. So yeah glad you didn't fall for it =D

[popkin16]

I believe in a God that prefers love to hate. He would prefer to see his children loving one another, whether it be a man and a man, or a man and a woman, etc. than he would to see them hating each other and killing.

Yeah, totally didn't fall for it. Especially since his reasoning basically went, "Because God says so."

[hoktauri]

Hee, I'm glad you stopped listening. That was a wise move.

Your family sounds like my family. I have an uncle who actually thinks Obama is the anti-christ. No lies. To hear him talk about politics or religion is eye-opening--in the sense that I'm just staring at him, wide-eyed, as he spews forth the nonsense.

I also have a cousin who is marrying into a Quiverfull family, who believe that birth control is against God's plan and so they have like a dozen kids whose names all start with the same letter.

[popkin16]

Wow. The anti-christ seems to be taking things a little too far. Just...wow.

Why the same letter? I wonder what's so special about that letter...but I do know that Catholics don't believe in birth control.

[spikespet7.livejournal.com]

You should have asked him why there is a large sex scandal concerning miltary men more preoccupied with sexually assaulting the women...hmmmmmm.

I hate when they think that the government is supposed to be God's enforcer.....hmmm go figure.


Kimber

[popkin16]

Ooo, good point. Next time I see him I'll have to do that XD

I hate that too. It's supposed to be separation of church and state, it drives me nuts when our government makes decisions based on their religious views.

[timespirt.livejournal.com]

That started with (W) Bush. He started making every decision based on "his" religious beliefs.

[popkin16]

Ugh, no. That goes against what we believe in - or at least, it should. But then, religion has always been mixed up in politics. Wasn't there a huge uproar over Kennedy being the first Catholic president, or some such?

[timespirt.livejournal.com]

Yes, but he didn't to my memory bring religion into his presidency that I remember reading about. People just didn’t want a catholic president. Too afraid the Pope would be somehow involved in political decisions I believe. It was a little before my time but I did do a report on him and to tell the truth he was very charismatic IMHO.

[popkin16]

Oh yes, the man was charismatic. And thought to be good-looking, too! But you're right, I don't think he ever really brought religion onto his campaign platform - it was more the people who brought it up :P

[aadarshinah.livejournal.com]

My favourite arguement to use in situations like that is from Saved!: “Why would God make us all so different if he wanted us to be the same?”

My second favourite arguement is: did you know that most people who argue so stringently against homosexuality are latent homosexuals themselves? But I rarely have an oppertunity to use that one.

There are a whole bunch of religious billboards near where I live. A new one says that the finanical crisis in Europe is a sign of the Apocalypse.

*facepalms*

People are stupid.

[popkin16]

My favourite arguement to use in situations like that is from Saved!: “Why would God make us all so different if he wanted us to be the same?”

Oh my god. I may end up appropriating that from you. Beautiful!

My second favourite arguement is: did you know that most people who argue so stringently against homosexuality are latent homosexuals themselves? But I rarely have an oppertunity to use that one.

I love this argument. I basically used it the other day, though I said: did you know that people hate most in others what they hate of themselves?

Not that this argument would work on my Uncle. His problem is more his belief in God is so strong that he's...a thoughtless sheep, mindlessly following the words someone else set down for him. Homosexuality is bad because God says so, end of story. (In his mind)

[aadarshinah.livejournal.com]

I may end up appropriating that from you

Go right ahead. The movie's pretty good too.

And as for your uncle... well, IDK what you can do. sometimes there's nothing you can do to educate people

[popkin16]

It's really difficult to change religious people's minds. It's not a task I'm suited for, not with my limited patience.

[aadarshinah.livejournal.com]

passive agressively leave literature on his kitchen table?

[popkin16]

I really like this idea. Too bad he lives in another state :( Maybe I should mail him some...

[aadarshinah.livejournal.com]

email?

[timespirt.livejournal.com]

Religious and political talks should be taken with a grain of salt.

[popkin16]

Agreed. In fact, I try to avoid those two topics just because they're such hot-button issues.

[omg-wtf-yeah.livejournal.com]

Ugh. Sounds fun. I don't envy you that.

[popkin16]

Oh, it was loads of fun *rolls eyes*

I tried thinking of this gifset I've seen on tumblr, about the bible and the ridiculous things it says people can't do (ex. associate with a woman on her period). But I had just woken up and I can't remember what sections of the bible he was quoting anyway (Leviticus?)

But yeah. That was my requisite religious lecture for the year.

[omg-wtf-yeah.livejournal.com]

associate with a woman on her period

That one sounds like a woman got in there: "And everybody must fuck right off until I'm done with my menses."

[popkin16]

HAHAHA. And then men were like, "Yes, that sounds like sound advice!" But the gifset also listed things like two different crops planted side by side being illegal, and you can mix fabric (like cotton and wool), and a man is allowed to beat his mother or something.

Ah, okay - so I didn't have it exactly right. Here is the gifset, if you're interested.

[omg-wtf-yeah.livejournal.com]

LOL. That is so WEIRD. Checkin it out.

[popkin16]

If it's accurate, it makes some very valid points!

[selenic76.livejournal.com]

Ugh, nothing like politics or religion in the morning... hope you at least had some coffee in you.

Someone once said (I think it was a priest in fact) that they'd rather believe in a God that is loving but not omnipotent, than in an omnipotent one that wouldn't do anything about the cruelties in the world. I share that thought. But I'm more or less an atheist anyways. I try to be nice to others, hope they are nice to me, and if there's any afterlife, that will just have to be enough to get me there :)

Though Finland is quite advanced in these matters, there are still lots of people who really think that being gay is a choice, and something unnatural :( (Even though gay people have the right to register their relationship, they still can't get all the priviliges that "normally married" couples do.) Which is probably why this country wasn't yet ready for a gay president. But he made it to the second round! Which makes me somehow feel proud of this country, there's hope for us yet! ^_^

(And talking of religion always leads my mind to Life of Brian, a brilliant movie :D)

[popkin16]

No, sadly - I had no caffeine in me while this was going on. I think that was my saving grace - I was simply too tired to react strongly.

I believe in God, but I believe in a God that prefers his people to love rather than hate, and that includes men loving men, women loving women, etc. He doesn't care what people do as long as it doesn't hurt anyone and everyone is happy. But apparently that's a different God than my Uncle's.

Oo, your from Finland? I had no idea :P But why would someone choose to be gay, knowing everything they're going to face? That argument makes no sense. Plus, if you can choose to be gay, then we should ask straight people to be gay for 24 hours, since it's such a choice. Sounds like Finland is further along than most of the US - only a few states allow marriage-like official statuses. OH WOW. A gay man made it to the second round of the presidential elects! I think that is just so damn cool.

(Life of Brian is amazing! Though tbh I'm more partial to the Holy Grail)

[selenic76.livejournal.com]

Oo, your from Finland? I had no idea :P

Ha, seems it's not so obvious then :D apart from occasional typos, and me whining how all the big Con events are too far away and I'll never get to meet the actors from SGA ;)

So lucky I live in a time where the internet can connect me with all the lovely fandom people at least ^_^ (Just have to get used to the time differencies)

(Oh and for the record, the presidential candidate had many qualities that would have made him a good leader, don't want anyone to think I voted for him just for being gay :D)

(And Holy Grail is awesome too :) )

[popkin16]

It's really not :D You have a great grasp on English and its weird grammar :P Everyone makes typos, and I live too far away to go to Comic Con, which is like THE convention.

I love that about the internet and today's technology - it really does allow you to connect with people from far away you otherwise would have no idea existed. (Time differences suck.)

(AH. That's good that you cleared that up XD)

(I love quoting Monty Python and the Holy Grail)

[sparklyfanta.livejournal.com]

Wow. Your uncle sounds like my Dad. On the other hand, kudos for remaining calm and amused! I never managed that even-keel when my Dad would talk like that. (Especially the approaching End of Days, holy shit. I remember my Dad expounding on that when I was twelve. I was all GEE, THANKS DAD.)

Also: I recently took a Bible-as-Literature class. Fun reading! But also, if I were to believe in the Bible, I would be an atheist. True facts.

[popkin16]

Both of my parents are homophobes. Thankfully not the violent kind, but I've had a lot of experience reigning in my anger and frustration. I think the only reason I was able to stay calm and amused was because I was exhausted from getting up early and had had no caffeine - I was just too tired for intense emotions.

When you were twelve?! Didn't all the talk of End of Days terrifying you? Jesus. That's so young!

[sparklyfanta.livejournal.com]

My dad was homophobic, but my mom wasn't. She was a social worker and did her best to be open and tolerant and accepting of things like homosexuality. She wasn't as successful on the differing religions front, but she was still way, way ahead of my dad.

It did! I was already depressed half the time anyway, then my dad started predicting the end of the world. I was like, well, why have ambitions about growing up? Or, how do I know I'm going to go to heaven? Just...yeah. I have a little end-of-the-world baggage going on.

[popkin16]

That's fantastic about your mom! My mom claims she doesn't care if people are gay, she just doesn't want to see them kissing. And then goes on to say she doesn't want to see heterosexual couples kissing, either. IDK. My dad just says he doesn't like them.

Wow, and you were already depressed too! I'm so impressed - if it had been me, I would have been like THERE IS NO POINT IN DOING ANYTHING, THEN. Or, how do I know I'm going to go to heaven? I always wonder that about myself, too :P Well, I ponder death more - I'm kind of scared to die? Because when I try to think about dying from a non-religious standpoint, I get terrified.

[sparklyfanta.livejournal.com]

At least your mom is fair about PDAs? That's how I'd take that.

I kind of wonder if I haven't fully internalized that whole "there's no point" idea, anyway. Real life has not given me much encouragement, lately.

Real Christians (TM) don't really worry about that whole going to heaven bit--they know they're saved/believe in Jesus/etc, so it's a no-brainer for them. If that's not your true faith, though, it kind of brings up uncomfortable questions.

I'm not really scared to die--I'm more freaked out about how my body will rot and decompose (I just hope I don't die at home with no one scheduled to call me or visit for a fair few days, ya dig?). And by then whatever makes me me will be long gone. I hope I get to go wherever I want; the Horsehead Nebula looks really awesome, I want to see it up close from the ethereal plane.

Terror is perfectly understandable! Death is a scary thing. But it'll happen sooner or later, so I don't see much point in being freaked out about it? Something like that.

[wanted-a-pony.livejournal.com]

Has anyone else noticed how much the Religious Reicht in the U.S. is openly taking its place with the rest of the tin-hat brigade, with Secret Atheist Conspiracies & Cover-Ups of Persecutions of the Religious & so on? (Of course they were the original 'hearing messages through their fillings' folks, so they're just moving back in with their natural bedfellows I suppose.)

Sorry if I offend any friends or acquaintences, but to quote from an excellent article, It Is Enough:

Stop me if you've heard this one before.

A holy man stands before his flock and says, "Dads, the second you see your son dropping the limp wrist, you walk over there and crack that wrist. Man up. Give him a good punch. Ok? You are not going to act like that. You were made by God to be a male and you are going to be a male."

And then the pastor says, "And when your daughter starts acting too butch, you rein her in. And you say, 'Oh, no, sweetheart. You can play sports. Play them to the glory of God. But sometimes you are going to act like a girl and walk like a girl and talk like a girl and smell like a girl, and that means you are going to be beautiful. You are going to be attractive. You are going to dress yourself up.'"

But here's the funny part: after that Pastor gets called out for his psychotic, virulent, hateful rhetoric, he says, "I was using hyperbole in an effort to communicate the importance of the gender distinctions that God created. In the context of the scripture, Mark, chapter 9, Jesus conjures up violent images as well, when he says, 'If your hand is causing you to sin, cut it off.' He's not speaking literally. He's speaking figuratively, using hyperbole to convey the importance of the offense."

Get it?

Beat your fag boys, your butch girls, beat them into line in the name of God...but if you get caught doing it (or espousing it), wave it off as 'hyperbole,' quote holy Scripture to defend yourself, and compare yourself to Jesus...and be sure to make it a non-apology apology by using phrases like "the importance of the offense," i.e. it is the limp-wrist son and the butch daughter who are actually offensive, and not the exhortation - delivered in church, mind you - to beat them because of who they are.

That happened in America not two weeks ago [at the time of writing], and if you're fool enough to think the incident was a one-off, a fluke, an aberration, then all I can say to you, sir or ma'am, is good luck to you, good night, go back to sleep, and don't bother reading on from here. ... — and goes on to a rather stirring [IMO] declaration of independence from hatred.

None of us wants to start a scene with a more-or-less beloved relative, or disturb a family get-together, or cause ourselves dyspepsia by disputing an ignorant or hateful statement. But bless you & others who do try, because if it wasn't for you the side of reason & love wouldn't be heard at all!

[popkin16]

That article quote is terrifying and so true.

I'm happy to try and keep trying. I just wish my attempt to make him see my side of it had been more coherent and put together. I couldn't think of the examples that I wanted to use (found in this gifset) or anything else particularly eloquent.

[mckaysmonkey.livejournal.com]

I started to reply, but I just wanted to check one fact - next thing I've switched to research mode and written this:

http://mckaysmonkey.livejournal.com/15993.html

In which I'm not convinced that Jesus thinks it's wrong to be gay?

[popkin16]

I replied over on your journal :) The thing with the bible is that so much is open for interpretation, and then people pick and choose which parts to follow/believe.

[velocitygrass.livejournal.com]

The Gay Debate: The Bible and Homosexuality is a great video that discusses all (even vague) references to homosexuality in the bible.

Not that I think it would be helpful, because the way you describe your uncle, he's only interested in his own belief as indoctrinated by the more radical part of Christianity.

there was no way to prove the Bible wrong, that Atheists and others have tried and failed
How exactly would you prove it wrong? I mean I could tell you that SGA is a documentary and everything in it happened exactly like that. How could anyone disprove that? It's not as if radical believers accept scientific evidence.

I just find the hypocrisy sickening. The bible is full of sins. It also says not to judge. But then of course, the bible is full of contradictory statements, which makes is possible to find support for your position whatever that may be.

I'm sorry that you have to deal with this in your family.

[popkin16]

OH. Thank you so much for the video rec! I have it loading now.

Yeah, it won't help. His argument pretty much boils down to "Because God says so, and if you disagree that's Satan's influence."

I have no idea? I didn't ask - didn't want to tease the bull, so to speak. I'm guessing they try to prove that some of the events recounted in the Bible didn't happen, or that there was a scientific explanation for them, or...something.

It also says not to judge.

This is what gets me. Who are we to judge homosexuals? It's not our job. And judge not lest ye be judged and all that.

But then of course, the bible is full of contradictory statements...

Have you seen this graphic? It's "A graphical representation of the contradictions in the bible. Each red line links 2 contradicting statements." If you click it, it gets bigger, and then if you scroll down it tells what each line represents.

I'm sorry too :( But I see them once a year, so it's not too bad. My family isn't all that close to the very religious side :P

[velocitygrass.livejournal.com]

That's a great graphic. Thank you very much for the link.

And I'm happy that you don't have to deal with them too often :)